DCU - valuing autistic students and staffEp 8, Fiona Earley & Clíodhna Harrison

DCU is unique when it comes to autism because in 2018, it became the world's first designated autism-friendly university and plans were announced last year to make it an even friendlier campus for autistic staff and students with the launch of phase two of the autism-friendly project.

In this episode Louise is joined by Fiona Earley, the Autism Coordinator in DCU, and by Clíodhna Harrison, a DCU Computer Science graduate who found out she was autistic during her time in DCU.

Fiona talks about the research that has gone into the project and the changes that have been made on campus.

Clíodhna shares her experiences about how everyone she met in DCU was ‘doing their best to ensure that every neurodivergent student gets what they need, as well as educating others about neurodiversity.’

She says this sends a message of acceptance and equal opportunities.

Louise:
Hello, and welcome to the Teachers Inspire Podcast. I'm Louise O'Neill and I curate Teachers Inspire which is organised and run by Dublin City University.

We want to thank everyone who has nominated a teacher for our 2023 awards. Each one is so special, and I am really looking forward to sharing some of them with you in the coming weeks.

Being the curator of Teachers Inspire and hosting this podcast, I have discovered so much about DCU and what it offers its students and staff.

DCU is unique when it comes to autism because in 2018, it became the world's first designated autism-friendly university and plans were announced to make it an even friendlier campus for autistic staff and students with the launch of phase two of the autism-friendly project.

Here to tell you more about it is Fiona Earley who is the Autism Coordinator in DCU, and, I am delighted to say, that I am also joined by Clíodhna Harrison, who is a DCU graduate and has a degree in Computer Science. Welcome to both of you.

Fiona:
Thank you.

Clíodhna:
Thank you.

Louise:
Okay, Fiona, will we start with you, we will put you in the hot seat!

[laughter]

Now, before I asked you about phase two, I suppose I'd like to know a little bit about what phase one involved and what actions DCU took to make the campus more autism friendly? Or what that even means, I suppose what does it mean to make a place more autism friendly?

Fiona:
I think to make a space autism friendly means to make it people friendly so it benefits everyone.

I suppose a lot of research went into trying to find out what would make a university autism friendly. That took about 18 months and out of that came what you would call eight principles, so there are eight principles researched quite deeply and from that, from those principles, comes the actual project.

So there's around 42 actions related to each principle. So, for example, one principle is to make the physical environment sensory friendly so there's lots of things that we're doing in that space.

Louise:
Like what? Could you maybe just give me an example?

Fiona:
Yeah, so I suppose the first thing that you do do, is you create awareness around why you're doing what you're doing.

So, we would create quiet spaces and also with the recognition that some people need sensory feedback. So quiet spaces aren't for everyone but it's easier to find a space that's loud and chaotic in a university as opposed to a quiet space.

So, we also try and hand it over to the students so student societies if they're holding say Freshers Day or big events, at this stage it's four years into the project, but a default is now to have a quiet hour.

Louise:
oh great

Fiona:
yeah, actually, what's been found is when there is a Freshers Day and there's a quiet hour from one until two… so Freshers Day is where all clubs and societies have a stand and it's where you go if you want to chat about a society or club and join up.

So when they started creating the quiet hour, say from one o'clock to two, what they discovered was that the sign-up was much higher for every single society then because -

Louise:
- that’s so interesting

Fiona:
- yeah, because not everyone wants to or can cope with loud noisy environments and DJs pumping things out.

Louise: I mean, that sounds nightmarish to me so I can, I can really empathise with that!

Fiona: Yeah.

Clíodhna:
just to add there's hopefully been more of the Clubs & Socs days or the Freshers Days with stands that are outside, rather than they used to kind of exclusively be within the Venue or the Sports Hall, which, when you pack a couple of hundred people into it for two days straight, it kind of gets a bit overwhelming and warm.

Louise:
Okay, so Clíodhna, you would say that having them outside makes a big difference?

Clíodhna: Yeah, definitely and it's generally a marquee over the stands so even if it rains, it's not too bad.

Louise: I love it. Irish weather..[laughter]

we must be you know, we must be aware of it at all times! So then Fiona, like with phase two, like is that what you're in at the moment or…?

Fiona:
Yeah, so while phase one was really identifying what supports - whether there are different or more supports autistic students needed - it was, it was very student focused.

So, it was around academic and social supports and (to) really create an awareness of how it might feel… so like a neurodivergent student, or staff, trying to operate and succeed in a university environment that that's not set up and where there is not awareness…

So a lot of the work in phase one was about raising awareness to like how people communicate differently, and how maybe neurotypical students perceive it; they might perceive somebody as quite direct or blunt, and it's simply a different communication norm. So, a lot of it was awareness raising.

And I think because there was quite a lot of awareness raising it came to the attention of autistic stuff.

Louise:
would there were many autistic staff in DCU or …?

Fiona:
There are many more autistic staff then will ever disclose because people, autistic staff, may be afraid of stigma or anything related to, again, lack of awareness.

So, I'm sure there's, there's a lot of autistic stuff in any academic setting, because many autistic students have a really deep and fast passion for study and they thrive in academia if the conditions are set for them to thrive.

Louise:
of course.

Fiona:
I think many autistic students will say to me that they've been really passionate and studying their subject since the age of five.

Louise:
oh wow.

Fiona:
So by the time they get to university, like they are way ahead of their peers and sometimes, like way ahead of their lecturers.

Louise:
oh wow.

Fiona:
Yeah, and some then just stay in an academic setting. But over the last two years, more and more autistic staff contacted the project, and you know, they were like, so you know, what happens if I want to stim during a lecture?

Louise:
yeah

Fiona:
there's all this awareness around conditions for success for students, but like, what about what about my conditions for succeeding as an employee… So that's why we introduced the ninth principle and that's to build capacity across the university, to support artistic staff.

Louise:
Yeah..I have found that really interesting, just on a sort of an anecdotal level, like the amount of people that I know personally, particularly women, who over the last couple of years, have been diagnosed kind of late in life.

It's, it's been, I think there's just so much more awareness that probably, particularly with women, I think, that just wasn't there when we were in school.

And I know that DCU has partnered with AsIAm, and what do you think that partnership will bring to students?

Fiona:
So AsIAm were part of the beginning of the project, so the founder of AsIAm, Adam Harris, who's autistic, he tried university, and at that time, it didn't suit him. So, he had a good knowledge of why universities need to become more autism friendly.

The reasons why this project were created really, were because of the high unemployment within the autistic community and that's regardless of, of qualification.

So there's a really high unemployment and under-employment and education was a way to address that. So AsIAm help us, they're our partners in the project. So they do a lot towards accrediting the project, making sure that we're delivering on what we said we would deliver on.

And they're also spreading the network, so I think there are four other universities in Ireland now signed up to the network, which makes it easier for us to, I suppose, develop and create because we're now part of a network of autism friendly universities.

Louise:
so how many - because I know that it says here that you were the first in 2018, how many are there in Ireland or across the world, do you know?

Fiona:
I know in Ireland there are four now and those four are accredited with AsIAm - now that that's not to say at all that other universities aren't autism friendly but these universities just happen to be part of the network.

I suppose, and Clíodhna you'll agree, that DCU like, it's certainly not autism friendly, but it's more autism friendly than it was four years ago and more to the point, we know what needs to be done to make us more autism friendly.

Louise:
And Clíodhna, was the fact that DCU was designated as an autism friendly university, was that part of the reason why you chose to go there or like, and I suppose, how did you find the transition then from secondary school to DCU?

Clíodhna:
So actually, I started college before it became an autism friendly university –

Louise:
- she’s very young looking! I got confused!

[laughter]

Clíodhna:
Actually, I'm 26 -

Louise:
Oh wow, afterwards, we must talk about the skincare routine. But now we will focus on these important questions.

[laughter from all]

Clíodhna:
Actually, having a bit of a baby face is an autistic trait.

Louise:
Oh really, I'm learning so much.

Clíodhna:
I still get ID’d everywhere!

[laughter]

So it didn't really factor into my decision to choose DCU but also, before I started college, I didn't know I was autistic. I was actually diagnosed because of DCU.

Louise:
Oh, really, how did that come about?

Clíodhna:
So I was diagnosed when I was 21 which I think was late 2019, which, when I was in my first year of college I went to the counselling service because I was struggling with mental health a little bit and struggling with kind of the workload and timelines and kind of managing everything.

And that really helped and then, because I was signed up to the counselling, there was a trainee occupational therapist they were reaching out to everyone who was kind of signed up to see if they'd be interested in occupational therapy sessions.

Because normally you'd need a diagnosis to attend to the occupational therapy, at least at that time, and so I got to go and I kept going because the occupational therapy really, really helped and it was my occupational therapist that realised that I was autistic and helped me get the diagnosis.

Louise:
wow and did like, did you feel like a lot of things from, like your childhood, were suddenly sort of slotting into place…?

Clíodhna:
it's, it's really, really hard to describe, because I am the same person as I was before the diagnosis, but also completely not, it was an absolute paradigm shift.

So many things made more sense, as well as just being able to look back on things and kind of view it with this new lens. Because getting the diagnosis didn't really change a huge amount, aside from being able to access supports in college… what really changed was, knowing myself and knowing why things were happening, it was really, really helpful.

Louise:
Yeah. So I suppose thinking about, you know, like, as we've been speaking about here, like the commitment and the time, and the resources that DCU has put into being like autism friendly, do you think that that has been effective and I suppose, do you think that it sends like a message to people about, you know, acceptance and equal opportunities when it comes to their, you know, let's say students, to their autistic peers?

Clíodhna: First off, I just want to say that I'm immensely grateful for everyone who's been involved in these kinds of projects, because everyone I've encountered has been seemingly tireless, doing their best to ensure that every neurodivergent student gets what they need, as well as educating others about neurodiversity.

And I think it does send a message of acceptance and equal opportunities. And I think the effect of it is equitable opportunities. So having those supports kind of brought me to a similar level as my neurotypical classmates in terms of enabling me to function in the environment that is college.

Louise:
Yeah.

Clíodhna:
And it does send a message of acceptance, but there's, there are more factors there because I think acceptance is really a feeling and there's still probably some ways to go and in terms of, not just DCU but society in general, for autistic people feeling accepted as a whole.

Louise:
as a what do you think those steps are?

Clíodhna:
really awareness is a part of it because, it's kind of like when you see a childhood bully posting on social media about bullying awareness week or something like that, and you're kind of looking at it going, you can say that, but your actions don't really reflect it.

And it can be a similar thing with autistic acceptance in that people will say they accept autistic people, and they will have some knowledge of what that means but then people who encounter an autistic person behaving autisticly will not have that reaction.

Louise:
Yeah.

Clíodhna:
What we know autism to be from, from media and from, I guess what people just pick up in general in life, isn't the reality of it. For example, like I didn't know I was autistic, I didn't know anything beyond the basics from media that was largely incorrect, until I knew myself I was autistic.

Louise:
Yeah.

Clíodhna
So it's, it's definitely gonna be a slow process and a lot of awareness but a lot of things like the work that DCU is doing will really help.

Louise:
And do you feel that your time and DCU has prepared you for the future? Or like, do you think that there's anything else that like DCU, and other universities can be doing to, I suppose, make the transition from secondary school to third level education that much more accessible to autistic students?

Clíodhna:
And my time at DCU has definitely prepared me for kind of the real world and or the world of employment, the world of taxes and mortgages and all that.

Louise:
Wow, I'm 12 years older than you, I still don't feel prepared for any of that. So maybe I need to go back to DCU!

[laughter from both]

Clíodhna:
Definitely not fully prepared but the idea of managing those kinds of things, more so than school prepares you.

Louise:
Yeah, for sure.

Clíodhna:
actually, I found college societies helped with that a lot. I served on a committee for my entire time in college.

Louise:
Which society were you a part of?

Clíodhna:
Redbrick, the networking society.

Louise:
Oh, great.

Clíodhna:
Yeah and that was wonderful but it was… that really helped me with kind of working with others and teamwork and I think one of the biggest things I learned was that both flexibility and rigidity are needed and knowing when to choose, which one is, is definitely a skill.

I think what universities can do, is kind of...encouraging autistic students to take part in those kinds of things, while also encouraging other students or neurotypical students to be accepting and to know, any changes that might need to be made, like the quiet hour and things like that, because that kind of collaborative work around an interest, in my experience, works a lot better for me then kind of the forced college projects and things like that.

Louise:
It's really interesting obviously to hear that from Clíodhna’s perspective and Fiona, you know, listening to Clíodhna like, I suppose, what do you think that you know, not you as a person, [laughter from both] but I suppose that DCU and other universities can do to, I suppose, just to make the campus as autistic friendly as possible and again, to facilitate that transition from secondary school to third level, which I think is challenging for all students but obviously, you know, particularly for neurodivergent students?

Fiona:
Yeah…I think a big thing, and it's something that has no cost - it's valuing difference.

Like, there's so many autistic staff and autistic students that I know, as I was saying, that are really deeply committed to their subject and actually, there's this kind of myth that autistic students all go and study maths or engineering or network… but there is a huge number of students doing nursing and environmental studies.

And I think that could be to do with, and I'm only thinking but like, a passion to fix things, to fix things in society.

Louise:
Interesting...

Fiona:
And, and that's why that they're very passionate for, you know, with any of those subjects related to justice or law and nursing and teaching.

But if we want to retain autistic staff and autistic students, we need to value that commitment and passion and immense knowledge more so than trying to… than judging people for not conforming to what society thinks is a way to communicate or, or a way to dress or behave or sit or anything like that…it's it's about valuing difference more so then that person seems a bit different, and why is that and how can we fix that difference?

Louise:
Yeah…

Fiona:
it's a difference that you want to flourish because there is a huge issue called masking or passing and that's why staff are having burnout and students are dropping out because they feel ‘I need to go on campus today and act neurotypical.’

Louise:
Yeah, that's exhausting

Fiona:
that's not sustainable and that's due to…obviously a person wouldn't feel that unless they felt judged…

Louise:
of course. Yeah and again, that comes down to the awareness, as you were saying Clíodhna, like more understanding of

Fiona:
difference

Louise:
Yeah. Yeah. And I love that. Because really, it comes down to empathy, and compassion and I think just as a whole, as a society, we need so much more of that.

Fiona:
Absolutely.

Louise:
Well, thank you so much, Fiona and thank you so much Clíodhna, that was just a really interesting conversation and thank you for being part of the Teachers Inspire podcast.

Fiona:
Thank you.

Clíodhna
Thank you.

Louise:
Now remember, you can find out more about Teacher's Inspire and you can keep up to date about the awards at teachersinpsire.ie and while you are there you can find links to other episodes of the podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Until the next time…