Mixed or single-sex schools?Ep 2, Alan Mynes and Seán Stack

Two secondary school principals join Louise to discuss one of the big questions for parents, and students, when it comes to selecting a secondary school. Louise chats to secondary school principals Alan Mynes, Ballymakenny College, Drogheda and Seán Stack, St Joseph's, Fairview, Dublin who share their experiences and discuss mixed and single-sex schools.

Seán’s father was a teacher and he attended mixed schools at primary and secondary level. St Joseph’s began to accept girls this year and he explains “there wasn't a moment that we said, oh we're going co-ed. There probably was a moment we said, well, hold on a second, why are we not looking at this?”

Ballymakenny College is a mixed school but Alan went to single sex at primary and secondary level and he is, as it happens, a past pupil of St Joseph’s, Fairview!

He says it comes back to “if a student is happy, regardless of whether it's co-ed or single sex,” that there are different school models and, “there's a school for everybody.”

Both tell Louise about the teachers they remember fondly from their school days.

Teachers Inspire is now open for nominations for 2023.

Click here to listen to the podcast

Louise:
Hello, and welcome to the Teachers Inspire Podcast. I'm Louise O'Neill and I curate Teachers Inspire which is organised and run by Dublin City University.

We want to hear about the teacher who has made a difference in your life or in your child's life. So remember you can nominate them now for an award at Teachersinspire.ie

On the podcast I talk to some of the amazing teachers and the people who nominated them. I also chat to other people who share their fascinating stories about teaching and teachers with me.

One of the biggest decisions that a parent can make is what sort of secondary school to send their child to. And for many, a crucial part of that decision can be whether or not to opt for a single sex school.

It is also the sort of decision that can be difficult to change once it is made. So, what are the differences and the potential benefits of a single sex school versus a co-ed school?

Our producer Elaine spoke to a number of people and asked them about their secondary school experience. They included a business owner, the manager of a remote working hub as well as a remote worker. But she began with some school leavers from 2019 to 2021.

Vox Pop 1:
I went to an all-boys school in secondary school. Once I was in school, I'd say a year or two in, I started kind of regretting that decision, I kind of wanted to switch to a mixed school and for a while I did debate switching. Just cos there's, there's a kind of an atmosphere and in an all-boys school, it's very kind of competitive, and it's very, it's very childish, in a sense. So you can't really get the work done in a way sometimes, sometimes it's grand, but it really does depend on the classroom and who is in your classroom. And, yeah, it has a very kind of laddish behavior to put it in a, in a younger term.

Vox Pop 2:
I went to a community school. And funnily enough, like, I was actually the opposite - when I was in second year I almost moved to an all-boys school and probably not because of anything in particular, probably just because my friends were in that school. It would have been a factor to consider like, I would have been leaving a mixed school to go to an all-boys school and like, that was fine in my head, you know what I mean?

Vox Pop 3:
I was just in a mixed school the whole way through. I was happy with the education I was getting; I was happy with friends I had in class, I don't think…it didn't make a difference like boys or girls, you talk to everyone, you get to know different people, different backgrounds. It's just kind of interacting with people the same way you would as if you weren’t in school and you were working.

Vox Pop 4:
I personally went to an all-girls school, I would probably have preferred to go to a mixed school, only because I think learning is inside and out of the classroom. But having just a female perspective, a lot of our teachers were female as well. I think just being in a mixed school would have given a more well-rounded experience. Thankfully, I was exposed outside of school with like church and just family and friends and things… but in school is where you spend most of your day, you kind of get one perspective, so, I just think, like exposing teenagers that young to just a more rounded experience prepares you more for college and for life in general.

Vox Pop 5:
I started out first year in a mixed school. For the likes of myself, whose favourite subject was mathematics, I did feel a little bit of sort of pressure or anxiousness. You know, if you wanted to raise your hand first in the class, you were always, I suppose, afraid of the boys looking over and the sort of negative stereotyping if you like. From second year on I went to an all-girls school. I definitely felt more comfortable, more confident, less anxious and I suppose my own personal experience with having, you know, attended both is, for me, it was definitely an all-girls school, I performed better.

Vox Pop 6:
So I started secondary school in the year 2000 and I went to a single sex school.

Elaine: when the time comes, if you were to pick a secondary school for your child or someone in your family, would you be more inclined to go, as you did, for the single sex?

Vox Pop 6:
I think my initial thought would be yes but it really depends on the child. So, in the single sex school that I was in, you know, there was no Technical Drawing, Woodwork… and you know, engineering is becoming a huge industry and manufacturing, and we look at STEM and things may have changed in the school that I’m in but that wasn't something that was fully supported in the single sex school. So that might depend on the child then what, what their kind of strengths are and where they want to progress.

Louise:
that’s a very interesting selection of opinions and experiences there. Now I'm very keen to hear what my guests think the differences are between single sex and mixed schools and if those differences go beyond academic results.

So we have with us, Alan Mynes, who is the principal of Ballymakenny College a mixed school in Drogheda and Seán Stack, principal of St. Joseph’s in Fairview, Dublin, which was an all-boys school but has just opened its doors to girls. You're both very welcome to the Teachers Inspire podcast.

Now tell me after listening to that, do you have any kind of initial thoughts?

Seán: I suppose a lot of the things that were said there are (and) the things you are after saying, we are after changing and we've been doing, obviously, the work for the last four or five years, they'd be the things that you’d come across. There was - I’m sure it'll come up - there was one interesting point there (in the Vox Pop) about the subjects offered in curriculum, which I think is going to be the relevant point really as opposed to the gender bits.

Louise: as in like, because I know that in my school, we actually did have a woodwork department but like the boys had to come up to our school to do Home Ec. So I suppose it's funny, how is that what you're referring to?

Seán: It would be part of it. I mean, even before we were, we were looking at the change of status, Home Ec is a subject that, we don't have a Home Ec room in the school, even now currently, there's one coming and due but that was coming and due before the change of status because we found there was demand for it.

We were already doing cooking classes and what we were calling life skills, which was, I actually have a qualified Home Ec teacher and the life skills was part of our Wellbeing but it actually was drawing a lot from the Home Ec curriculum.

I mean, there was a demand there before we had a female in the school. So, I even think that divide of, got to be really simplistic: Home Ec for girls (and) Woodwork for boys, is not as relevant as it might have been.

Louise: Yeah. Well, I'm glad to hear that you weren't just like, oh, we've got, we've got women coming to the school, we better build a Home Ec class

[laughter]

Seán:
I wanted that room before!

[laugher]

Louise turning to Alan:
how about you, was there anything that struck you?

Alan: The comment about exposure to a more, you know, ‘rounded’ I suppose, you know, the idea that sharing school is outside and inside. Your education doesn't just take place in the school building, it's outside as well.

And the amount of time that you do spend in school, if it's in a single sex school, you know the impact that may have.

I think, everybody has gone to school, you know, everyone has an opinion on their own school, and you know the experiences that they had.

I think they're all valid opinions and different schools suit different students. And you have to accept that some students find it really easy to settle into a co-ed school, some of the students find it really difficult to settle into a co-ed school.

It's no ‘one size fits all’ I suppose when it comes to it.

As a parent, I have three daughters and they're all in a co-ed school. I suppose I can see the benefit of it now, they went to single sex primary schools and I can sort of see the benefit of it. They are a bit more, I would say, rounded, but that is just my opinion on it.

Louise: with your own schools, let’s say primary, did you go to mixed or single sex?

Seán:
I myself, I was a mixed primary and a mixed secondary.

Louise:
So, you knew nothing else. You're like, this is, this is the way forward?!

Seán: I think that was just the circumstances and you were there and again, like Alan was saying, and like came up there (in the Vox Pop) they were the right schools for me.

I've never actually asked my own parents that question of how they did that.

[laughter]

But I can't imagine anyone was banging the drum saying it has to be a co-ed school. I think it was more ‘how does the school fit what we're doing’ and ‘how does it fit on what Seán wants to be and do in his own time’ and out the side of my cheek - I picked my secondary school because they had a big basketball programme and nothing to do with anything else!

[laughter from all three]

Louise:
And this was with St. Joseph's, I mean, what, like how was that decision made? Was that something that was a long time coming? Or was it a difficult decision? Or did it feel very natural?

Seán:
It definitely felt very natural throughout. Now it wasn't, there wasn't, this big Eureka moment where we said, we're going co-ed.

And I think our school has been changing a lot, as all schools do over time, but definitely in the last 10 years. And we had brought in a new curriculum, we're part of this P-Tech programme which was bringing in coding and robotics and we're piloting that and we were looking at different bits.

And a lot of what we were noticing was between the changing curriculum, the demand for places, the competition in the area but also, we were seeing that some of our students from our feeder schools were going elsewhere and the feedback they were giving us is ‘because that's where my sister is.’

Louise:
Okay.

Seán:
And then we were having sisters coming who were in primary school with their brother and they were having to separate.

Louise:
Yes

Alan:
Yeah.

Seán:
And rather than this being one cause of ‘oh our curriculum did it’ or ‘oh we have fantastic staffing,’ or anything like that, it was more (that) eventually we asked the questions of why are we only take boys? And we didn't have a good answer.

Louise:
Yeah.

Seán:
And it kind of said that's not what we stand for (because) we're inclusive, we're about our community, we want our siblings to stay together, the curriculum we're offering with the P-Tech and the different bits should be open to all - you can't preach about IT being open and diversified if you are not even teaching it to the girls.

Alan:
Yeah.

Seán:
And that led and was the catalyst for us starting the process. Now the process was quite long but if you're looking for it, there wasn't a moment that we said, oh we're going co-ed. There, there probably was a moment we said, well, hold on a second, why are we not looking at this?

Louise:
Yeah.

Alan:
Yeah.

Louise:
And was the demand there from the parents. I mean, even when you said that, in practical terms of, I don't want to have to be driving one kid here and one child here for school…

Seán:
It was, I don't know that it was the logistics of getting them to the place, I think it was more, it was more the fact of, I mean, we're an inner-city urban school.

It was more the fact of communities stay together, families stay together and friends… those very, very close links and having, having your primary schools where (children) they were mixed and then classmates had to separate, not out of choice, but out of this barrier that the schools were putting up.

It was probably causing that break in the river and we were just beginning to hear the echoes of that.

Louise:
Yeah and (to Alan) your school has always been co-ed?

Alan:
(agreeing) has always been co-ed but my own education - I started in a co-ed school and then I (was) really very unhappy (in) primary school and then I was transferred, my mam and dad took me out and put me into St. Joseph's Primary…

Louise:
why were you unhappy – it is getting into a therapy session here – tell me your childhood trauma?!

[laughter]

Alan:
(I was) just really unhappy with…. I think the relationship with the teacher wasn't very good, I just was probably very anxious at that, you know, in primary school.

So my mam and dad decided to put me into an all-boys school in Fairview. And it was totally different and actually… but I had a really good, a really, really good teacher. And that was probably the difference for me.

So, I suppose then I went straight into the St. Joseph's Secondary school, it was, again, it was single sex, (I) taught in a single sex school for nearly 20 years and then to go from that then to a co-ed secondary school.

Louise:
So what do you- I mean because that sounds like you've had sort of experience of both, both as a student and as a teacher - so like, you're very well placed, I suppose to talk about what you see, you know, the differences are or the benefits…

Alan:
I think it comes back to if a student is happy, regardless of whether it's co-ed or single sex, (if) they're happy in school and that is their only experience that they can, they can, rely on or recount.

And if they do…it may be one area that they may be unhappy with if they're in the wrong school for them but there's, you know, there's different school models, there's different… there's a school for everybody, I suppose, if you take to that.

But it was interesting about the point about, I think that's an area where parents are saying (that) they have a boy and a girl and they have to split them up (moving to secondary).

It's not necessarily the logistics of it, you know, that's one part of it, but they would say they'd like them to go to the same school.

And if the school can't offer that, well, then it's competitive as well and people say, well I can go/I can do that in this (other) school up the road, why would I send them to your school if you can't, you know, take both of them?

Louise:
Yeah, of course.

Alan:
And I think parents want and are seeing that there's a benefit to having the two of them, boys and girls, in one school, their children in one school. You know, not just logistics but back to that all rounded education.

Louise:
You know, it's I went to an all-girls school, both primary and secondary and like, I found the transition to university really difficult because it did feel, you know, you're a bit like, ‘Oh my God, there's a boy sitting next to me, what does he want?!’

[laughter]

Alan:
Yes

Louise:
And I so I was always very much like, you know, school should be co-ed. I think it's much more like beneficial, like in terms of social skills, and I suppose as well, having gone as I said, to an all-girls school and having had an eating disorder, it felt like in lots of ways that it was like a breeding ground for that kind of competitiveness, and academically, very competitive.

But what's been interesting with my job is because of, you know, my writing, I've gone into schools to talk to students and I have seen a difference in - and look this is only anecdotal - but like, if I go into all girls schools, they're really, they've loads of questions. They're really eager to talk about like, sexism and rape culture.

And then if I go into boys’ schools they do seem to be sort of silence(d), I don't know, if it's because of the particular subjects that I'm bringing up and there's always one like teenage boy who's like, ‘well, what about men?’

So, I'm just wondering like do you see that or how like as an educator would you try and sort of combat that and make sure that everyone sort of feels like that their voice can be heard?

Alan:
I have one anecdote about a student who was in our school, and, you know, every topic that came up - it was Leaving Cert History - the student would refer to the teacher and say, you know, there's no, no female, in this history book at all.

So here we have another important topic of history, whether it's European history or modern history yet, no, no women are mentioned in any of this.

So, it became you know, an object, you know, sort of a comic aside between the teacher and the student. And you're not wrong, he'd say, you're not wrong.

So, I suppose, if your experience of that is that (you are) completely sidelined out of history, and that's just one subject, it's very difficult to see whether your place or where you're valued in the education system if you're not even referred to in a whole, a whole section of the curriculum, you know, so.

But that’s something that maybe will be addressed in, you know, when the curriculum is changing, and it can be addressed with the Junior Cycle curriculum but at Leaving Cert it is probably fairly set what the, what the topics are going to be.

Louise: Yeah. [To Seán] What do you think?

Seán: I mean it's interesting to hear you say that you noticed that change going to university.

[laughter from Louise] Louise: oh, my God -

Seán: anecdotally as teachers, we would have up, until now possibly, we would have always thought the boys and their relationships with females, would have been something, we would have maybe observed without any hard conclusions.

But I suppose if we're looking at, by the time you go into university, 17/18 years and you've done those real formative puberty years, growing and developing that identity in a single sex (school), that is obviously dampened and much lesser if they're coming in at 12 and spending all of that time together.

So I suppose it would be naïve to think not spending that time in those formative years will have an impact on how they perceive each other when they go outside and beyond, as yourself have noted –

Louise:
I am emotionally and socially stunted but anyway…

Alan: and over the time you see the nature of the relationships change within the student group. So, they tend to stay within their, within their, within you know –

Louise: it’s quite gendered, is it?

Alan:
the girls stick with the girls, you can see that… but as the years - particularly we'd see Transition Year as a big - we do a musical (in TY) and it's the first time they have had an opportunity to work with their classmates in a different environment than the classroom.

And you'd see an awful lot of that, that's a change in the nature of the relationship between those students and you see them hanging around with different friendship groups and they are more balanced then in fifth and sixth year. So that's probably a positive thing.

I would - having been to a boys school - I've probably found it a little bit more difficult at third level.

Louise:
you and me both Alan!

[laughter ]

Alan:
join the Club!

[laughter from all three]

Alan:
And it was unnecessary I felt. It shouldn't you know, you're, you're going what, what do I do in this situation?

Louise:
I know, because I know/I suppose people would argue, particularly I think parents who are sending their girls to single sex schools, will sort of argue, you know, statistically that they do better academically... So, I suppose what would your answer to that really be? Well, I suppose the social sort of part of that is really important as well or…?

Seán:
the first bit I’d do is say I have yet to see a bit of conclusive research or data that actually backs that up – that the gender separation does it - there's bits there, but I think there is far more influence on socio-economic…

Louise:
yes, of course ‘cos I suppose a lot of them are fee paying and so therefore more money for grinds and things…

Seán:
I won’t go that far -

Louise:
I will go right there!

[laughter from all]

Seán:
it doesn't seem to back-up that… I mean if you, if you really break that down simplistically that's a way of saying girls are smarter than boys and no research backs that up.

Louise:
I mean, well, I would argue that…

[laughter from all]

Seán:
but I think - some of the data you sent around cited that as well in a different bit and we will come across it in our own thing… the mixed school, single sex, all girls, all boys, taking out that socio economic curve, the end results are there.

I think, if I'm not wrong Alan, you will probably know this, the data backs up that the progression is (that) the curves shaped a bit differently, but the endpoint is the same result.

Louise:
So now because this is the Teachers Inspire podcast, I'm going to ask both of you if you had a teacher who inspired or influenced you?

Alan:
I was very lucky. I had access to fantastic teachers. I’ll start off with primary school. When I, when I moved primary school I had a Christian Brother, Brother Costello - he was a really a great teacher, great teacher… then into St. Joseph's and I still remember all my teachers!

I had like, top class teachers, but two who I suppose would have been very, not inspirational in Dead Poets Society sort of way -

Louise:
no getting up on tables!

[laughter]

Alan:
but you know, in encouraging me, encouraging me and you know, having belief in you.

Aidan Giblin was a fantastic teacher, I had him through my six years in second level. He was my geography teacher and a lot of the stuff that I would have tried to emulate in the classroom myself would have been because of Aidan.

And Denise O'Brien was my English teacher for Leaving Cert English and she gave me a great love for English and again, just, you know, just the relationships were key and I think that was the best thing about those teachers, they had a really good relationship with students.

It was all about ‘the student’ before we had the language to talk about ‘all about the student’ and ‘student voice’, they were doing that as a matter of day-in day-out as part of their, their professional, you know, role in the school.

So really, I really (was) very fortunate in the teachers that I had in secondary.

Louise: those kinds of teachers make such a huge difference, don't they?

Alan: They still do. You still, still think about them even 35 years after completing the Leaving Cert you still have a lot to thank those particular people for, you know, the help they gave me in school, you know.

Louise: well, we see that with this project, like, you know, people who are talking about teachers that they had, as you said, 35-40 years ago, they still just, you know, hold that experience so close to their heart.

Alan:
Yeah.

Louise to Seán:
How about you?

Seán:
I'm glad Alan you broke the rules and mentioned more than one because I was thinking about this!

The first one and I suppose the one I was going to go with if I had to pick one - my own father was a teacher and ended up in the school that I was in as well.

Louise:
how was that?

Seán:
Do you know what, I never noticed it. Genuinely it never was, never was a thing. He had the same name as myself so the only confusion was ever when ‘Seán Stack come to the office,’ but other than that…

Louise:
he taught you, did he?

Seán:
They never put me in his classroom, which I imagine was by design.

[laughter]

Louise:
Yeah

Seán:
But at home, and I mean, the reason I bring him up is it's not just the subject teacher, but it was that idea, that was for me was real tangible - school and home thing - because I got away with nothing in school that he didn't know about because it would happen in the staff room but it was lovely as well because it brought the two together and if we're talking about community and partnerships, that'd be it.

In terms of a classroom one, my own Leaving Cert English teacher, he was a man named Jack Noonan. I suppose I’d fondly remember him as kind of eccentric and really passionate and emotive and got up and was a bit of that Dead Poets Society.

But the reason I remember him was at the time, you almost thought he did it because he was enjoying it, but he loved when students got things wrong and in hindsight, looking back, it was my first experience of what we'd now call that growth mindset.

He loved when things were wrong because that gave him something to work with. He made it feel good -

Alan:
yeah -

Louise:
yeah -

Seán continues:
to be not right.

Louise:
Yeah. To make mistakes…

Seán:
and that was so important.

Louise:
and I think that is so important.

Seán:
I mean we have it in our in our language nowadays, we call it a growth mindset and, and adapting and everything else. And but I mean, even my 20 years ago, I don't think the phrase growth mindset was widely used but that might have been my first tangible touch of it.

Louise:
Yeah, I think that's incredible - just to be allowed to make mistakes and sort of see that just as part of life, is a really good life skill in general…

Seán:
you didn't look forward to it, but you liked it when it happened!

[laughter]

Louise:
well all I'm gonna say is that you know, you should both nominate your teachers for the Teachers Inspire award because they sound incredible. So, thank you both so much for speaking with me today.

Guests:
Thank you.

Louise:
now remember, you can find out more about Teachers Inspire, you can nominate a teacher for the award and you can find links to other episodes of the podcast at teachersinspire.ie or you can listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Until the next time…

//end