Why are there more ‘Miss’ teachers than ‘Mr’ ?Ep 10, Dr Alan Gorman & Alex Finnegan

The Teachers Inspire awardees have come from primary and secondary school level. One question we have frequently pondered is why there are so many more women than men picking teaching as a career, particularly in primary school.

To discuss this, Louise is joined by Dr Alan Gorman who is Assistant Professor in the School of Policy and Practice lecturer in DCU Institute of Education.

He trained, and worked, as a primary school teacher before moving to third level and in 2022 he was awarded the DCU President's Award for Excellence in Teaching.

They discuss the possible reasons behind the gender divide and also hear from Alex Finnegan, who says he wanted to teach since his own days in primary school. He is recently qualified and teaches 5th class.

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Louise:
Hello, and welcome to the Teachers Inspire Podcast. I'm Louise O'Neill and I curate Teachers Inspire which is organised and run by Dublin City University.

We want to thank everyone who has nominated a teacher for our 2023 awards. Each one is so special, and I am really looking forward to sharing some of them with you in the coming weeks.

This is the fourth year of Teachers Inspire and each year we have four awardees and honestly, each one has been so deserving. The stories behind their nominations really do come from the heart.

And our awardees have taught in primary and secondary schools, you know, they've been male and female but I think what's been interesting to notice is that it does appear that teaching is still a career choice that seems to be more popular with women, and particularly at primary school level.

So why are fewer men choosing a career in teaching?

To discuss this I'm joined today by Dr. Alan Gorman who is Assistant Professor in the School of Policy and Practice in DCU Institute of Education.

He is the ‘Area of Professional Focus’ leader for Professional Learning and Teacher Education on the Doctor of Education Programme at DCU and in 2022 he was awarded the DCU President's Award for Excellence in Teaching.

Congratulations, Alan! So welcome to the Teachers Inspire podcast, Alan and before we get into our chat, I just want to listen to a very short interview that our producer Elaine, produced with a newly qualified primary school teacher.

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Alex:
My name is Alex Finnegan. I am a primary school teacher in my first year of teaching in St. Mary's Parish Primary School in Drogheda, county Louth and we're here in my classroom after day has finished and it's lovely and quiet now compared to what it was earlier on!

I've always wanted to be a primary school teacher since I was in primary school and I would say it's… the experience I had in primary school was nearly all positive.

I had a lot of great role models to look up to, all the teachers I had were absolutely fantastic and I never really seen myself doing anything else other than primary school teaching.

Elaine:
When you started your studies at third level to get your qualification, was there any noticeable difference, say between the number of guys doing it compared to the number of say female students?

Alex:
Yeah, definitely, within third level. So, within my year, we had maybe between 120/130 and I'd say (of them) 20 lads maybe in and around… maybe a little bit more, maybe a little bit less.

And then even as the years went on… so the year under me, I think, had less lads than the next year came along (and) there was less again. So it's nearly I thought it'd be the other way around where there'd be more coming into it.

But I don't know if we just had a once off year where there was more people in it but like, yeah, it's kind of staying around that level or even lower so yeah, it is a massive difference between male/female teachers.

Elaine:
Do you have any idea why that is?

Alex:
There's, there could be a couple of factors… And, yeah, as in thinking of like a kind of from a male's perspective, whether there is more male teachers within secondary school areas compared to primary school areas, whether they maybe don't like having to deal with the younger kids… compared to like ‘the older kids would suit me a lot better’ (and) ‘I'd rather deal with maybe, like the moods compared to just I suppose like, just smaller children.’ Then also whether it just, it appeals more to female… I'm not 100% sure, but that'd be my perspective. Yeah, that's what I would say anyway… not too sure.

Elaine:
I know you said ever since you went to primary school, you wanted to be a primary school teacher, but here we are twenty odd years later, you are now a primary school teacher. You know, is it different to what you thought it would be?

Alex:
Yes, and no, like kind of like two parts. So, definitely in terms of within the classroom, it is what I envisioned and then like, obviously, you learn more when you're in third level and like how to control the classroom and stuff like that. And the content you teach, obviously, like times have changed so you move with those as well.

But, obviously when I was younger, lifestyle and all that, did not come into my mind and I was just kind of like ‘teachers are just in the classroom, they don't, they don't live outside of school’, but now like, like… I would say like, I couldn’t highly recommend it enough because like lifestyle… you get like the odd week here and there to kind of recharge your batteries.

And you might have to do a couple of plans and stuff outside, school notes and stuff, but like I feel, I feel like you're given that time like to really just kind of ‘be you’ as well.

At Christmas you get your time off, the summer of course, Easter, so you've a lot of time to kind of grow as a person and I feel like that time off, everyone's like, ‘oh, sure, teachers, like loads of time off, like,’ but I feel like that those life experiences that you gather, make yourself a better teacher. So I don't, I don't feel like, like that time off is just ‘time off.’

You're like indirectly making your life better within the classroom and that's why I feel it should appeal to people more because you get to live life, I think, more than most professions, like, that's just my opinion you know.

Louise:
Okay, so that was primary school teacher, Alex Finnegan. And I think you can sort of get the impression that he really loves, he really loves to teaching…

Alan:
You can, yeah, yeah.

Louise:
So from your point of view, Alan, like when a student is opting for a career in teaching, like, what are the factors involved but I suppose, particularly with a male student?

Alan:
Yeah, it's a really good question, Louise, to begin with and I think really Alex, in in that recording there, really captures the motivations for, for a Leaving Cert student to consider teaching.

I think, you know, we might go out in the street and ask somebody, you know, what's the perks about being a teacher and immediately one will say time off, but I think, looking at the time factor, as being a perk, but really, it's such a dynamic role, it's such an opportunity, you know, you're working with children, and you're working with children at different levels.

Like you might be working one year with a group of five-year-olds, you might be in junior infants, and the next year, you might be working in sixth class at the, you know, at the age of 12, as they prepare to transition into secondary school. So it's a really dynamic role in that sense.

And then, of course, one of the big draws, and this was a draw for me, is that at primary level, you have a very diverse curriculum, and the opportunity to teach across a range of subject areas.

So typically speaking, in a school you're moving from teaching perhaps maths to history to art... and that's all happening within a day as well.

So there's the opportunity to really… and to see children progress, and the opportunity to take see a child as they progress during a during a year.

I remember when I was a teacher, one year I had first class, and really, they were coming in to me in September, coming out of kind of that infants period. And really, I got to see them grow over the year as emergent readers and writers and all like, I think that's a really, really rewarding aspect of the role.

So, I think, really, as the Leaving Cert looks back on their own primary school experience, the look at those factors. And naturally, as well, as Alex said, there is a good work/life balance in relation to, the time off and that. But there's a number of factors at play there as well.

Louise:
And I suppose it is interesting when, when we look at this and say there are still fewer men who are going in to teach at a primary school level, that like, it does seem to be that if men are going to become teachers, that they are more drawn to post primary.

I mean, I know this is kind of anecdotally but like, you know, number one, what do you think that deterrent is for primary and why then is post primary more appealing to male teachers?

Alan:
I suppose this is this is an issue that has come up time and time again, about the about the lack of male teachers, particularly at primary level. Really, I suppose, if we look at research around it and there are four key factors that are at play, that have been identified in previous work and research around this.

One being that there are specific entry requirements, and I know on this show, Louise, you've, you've discussed this before, particularly with my own boss, Anne Looney the Executive Dean in the IOE around say Gaeilge and the religion, and if you look at the statistics from the State Examinations Commission that records stats around the Leaving Cert, there are much fewer male students doing higher level Irish than there are female.

Louise:
do they have any sense of why that is?

Alan:
So it could be down to a number of factors within the school and it could be down to their own experience of the subject, it may be that they're opting to do higher level subject areas in other areas and as a result of that, they may have to take an ordinary level subject, you know, so that comes that comes into play.

And then teaching is… we're very fortunate in Ireland, like, really the teaching remains a very competitive course an undergraduate level, like we see every year, it's very high on the CAO system, and that can create a barrier.

Louise:
That’s true.

Alan:
And, you know, the OECD, you know, have noted in recent research, you know, females generally perform better in relation to in that and particularly around terminal assessments and that as well, like the Leaving Cert. So that can be, that can create a barrier as well.

But looking at other factors as well. There is the…a big influence, actually, the people might not be aware of, is actually the influences of say, parents, or friends or peers.

And I know from my own experience, like when I was looking at doing teaching, I remember my granddad at the time said to me, cos the points were on par with the law, would you not do a law degree in UCD and you have your uncle's practice to take on?

Louise:
Okay, yeah, gotcha.

Alan:
So really, and that has actually been reported before, in, you know, other research around this, whereby a guidance counselor, particularly for high achieving male pupils, might say you'd be bored in teaching, you might be bored, look more towards maybe the engineering or the sciences?

Louise:
Gotcha, more STEM kind of stuff?

Alan:
Exactly. So there, there are, there are those factors at play as well. And then some might see teaching has been kind of lacking mobility or progression within that, and I think that's something we have to look at, as teacher education, as a teacher education provider, that there is lots of career opportunities within teaching, like, you know, people just think you teach and you become principal and that's your -

Louise:
Yeah, that's what I would have thought, I think, probably, yeah.

Alan:
And we need to look at other opportunities, we have teachers who moved into journalism, they moved into academia, they moved into research, into policy. You know, there are a number of factors that, know, are at play when a teacher can progress and move forward as well.

Louise:
and tell me did you have like, you know, we often ask on this podcast about like, was there a particular teacher that inspired you? Like, was there a teacher, and like, did you have many male teachers when you were in primary school?

Alan:
Yeah. So, I was in a very small country primary school, in Westmeath, where I am from. I had a male teacher in first class, two male teachers in first class actually, one had moved because he got a permanent role elsewhere.

And again, in fourth and fifth class and really, I was very fortunate with the males - and I think that was you know, we sometimes speak about role models and that and you know, I think particularly my teacher at fourth or fifth, because my memory is you know, like he was very dynamic in how he taught us, excellent at teaching drama, excellent at teaching physical education. We really got the full curriculum…

Louise:
What was his name, or do you want to say?

Alan:
I hope he doesn't mind he's, he's a principal in Mullingar, Michael Molloy .

Louise:
I think no one minds getting a compliment, I think we are okay!

[laughter]

Alan:
he's Principal of a new of a new large school, Holy Child in Mullingar. Then I went to a post primary diocesan school in Mullingar and I had a lot of male teachers as well so I was, I suppose, through primary and post primary, I did have that experience…

Louise:
did you say that did you want to mixed school or an all-boys school?

Alan:
All boys…mixed primary school and all-boys post primary.

Louise:
because I went to a single sex convent primary school and all of the teachers were female. And I wonder would that …like would there have been a situation where a male teacher would have been…

Alan:
Yeah well, like I remember as a student teacher for one of my, what we used to refer to as teaching practices then, it's now known as school placement, but was in an all girls school and I was the first male to be ever in…teaching in that space.

And it was a big, it was, I remember being kind of told that the first day and it was kind of seen as this kind of, you know, so yeah, it does, it does…

Louise:
Was it a big adjustment do you think for like the students or was it one of those things where it was weird the first day and then it was fine?

Alan:
Yeah, absolutely. The first day or two maybe was a novelty, but then, you know, we continued…. So it is, it's a very good question you raise and you know we are moving towards more Co- Ed schools at primary level and I think that's a good development given your own experience, you said there, as a pupil in an all-girls primary school as well.

Louise:
There are probably people who are listening to this, who are thinking, well I mean really, like what does it matter what gender teachers are and like does it impact you know, the experience of the children or the quality of their education?

Alan:
It's widely debated, widely debated. If you look at the research literature around all this, it's widely debated.

You know, we've colleagues who've really studied this, I know the School of Education in Galway, Manuela Heinz and Elaine Keane have really, they really get into kind of looking at this, and the debate is, it is, those that would question it would be very much around this idea of say role models and there's ambiguity around that. And, and it could be argued that it actually doesn't have an impact at all on student achievement.

But while others would say it's important to have diversity within the profession, it's important to have diversity at different levels. And naturally, you know, they might argue that it's important for maybe a male pupil… he might be having difficulties in the school, and he may be able to identify with a male teacher in relation to that. So there are the debates around, around it and yeah, it continues.

Louise:
Yeah, I mean I suppose that makes sense. I mean, if I thought about, you know, a young girl who was in a, in a school and all of her teachers were male, I mean, we would think about, you know, representation, and like, you know, and I suppose even encouraging, you know, for students to go into education, if you see someone that you can identify in that way, you know, it's like, well, ‘if she can do it, then I can do it,’ you know, like, so like, would you think it's fair to say that, like, perhaps a reason why fewer men are going into teaching at a primary school level is because they didn't see it to sort of believe it at that age because there were fewer – it is kind of a chicken and egg situation…

Alan:
Yes. Yeah. And that is a big argument around the need to kind of to have, perhaps a role model as somebody today can see themselves as… you know, I go back to my own experience, looking at Michael Molloy as a teacher of mine, and I was like, actually know what, I yeah, I'd like to be kind of that kind of dynamic teacher.

And that is unpacked in the literature around kind of the importance of having role models, and the importance of being able to look/identify with somebody in that regard as well.

So, it is important to look at the… to have to have diversity within the profession –

Louise:
and not just in gender like

Alan:
No, absolutely

Louise:
in terms of race and ethnicity and abilities, all of those things.

Alan:
Absolutely. Absolutely. And again, and I know you've unpacked and in terms of, you know, the barriers there that, you know, to move away from, to open up the profession to many, and kind of remove those barriers for those that, that want to be a teacher but the barriers that are in place are preventing them to be a teacher.

Louise:
and do you think like, is DCU doing anything in particular, I suppose, to remove those barriers or to help encourage more people to consider teaching as a career?

Alan:
Yeah, we are. Like our Dean has been excellent in terms of leading, leading the institution in supporting kind of diversity and, you know, through various approaches, like, for example, DCU is working very closely with FET (the further education sector) and we naturally have, we've also had the Deaf Ed, the BEd in ISL (Irish Sign Language)

Louise:
Yeah, we talked to someone (on another podcast)

Alan:
and Elizabeth Matthews is starring that, and you know Anne and Elizabeth would say that the biggest challenge as you try to diversify an open profession are certain hurdles and barriers in place.

And it's also as well important as well, that we just don't look at say… you know, sometimes people might say, oh, removing this entry requirement is the panacea or this will diversify… because there are people that go to school, in the schooling system, and they have very negative experiences, and they don't want to work in a system for that reason, for that reason.

I've just, you know, a person I know in Maynooth (University) is doing some really good work in relation to that about their experience of schooling, so we need to look at that.

But DCU has really, really good supports in terms of, you know, even supporting around the Irish requirement, around working around that and about kind of opening up, opening up initial teacher education to all and kind of moving it away from that kind of, seen as kind of the middle-class white, but it's not a problem that's unique to Ireland, Louise.

It's an international issue but in Ireland, we are challenged further, because of, because of those entry requirements, and I think Anne spoke about, you know, looking at kind of Irish (requirement) coming in and rather than having a certain standard coming onto the programme, it's perhaps looking at it (requirement) as they're moving into the professional era as well.

Louise:
That's great to hear that there are moves being made in that direction. So I mean, Alan, I suppose, we have spoken about this issue that there, you know, there isn't enough men going into teaching at primary school level. So I suppose, let's say if we take it five years down the line, do you think things are changing? Is there sort of light at the end of the tunnel?

Alan:
Absolutely. I think so. We have… I can only comment on our initial teacher education program, our BEd, our primary initial teacher education program in DCU, but we see actually seen an increase in a number of male students coming up coming up on board.

Louise:
oh great to hear.

Alan:
And it's fantastic that we're having a podcast discussion about this, because it is getting us to think about it and it's really important that we're researching diversity in teacher education and that really has gained momentum in the last number of years.

So let's hope that the policymakers you know, open up teaching for all because it's, it's a wonderful profession and so many people really, really enjoy teaching, have a passion… And let's open that up for others to come in and bring that passion into our classrooms.

Louise:
Thank you so much for speaking to me today Alan.

Alan:
Pleasure Louise, so interesting…

Louise:
Now remember, you can find out more about Teachers Inspire and you can keep up to date on the awards at Teachersinspire.ie and while you're there, you'll find links to other episodes of the podcast, or you can listen wherever you get your podcast. Until next time…